Navy Reads Interview: Author John M. Barry, 'The Great Influenza'

By Bill Doughty–

Historian John M. Barry

John M. Barry's "The Great Influenza: The Epic Story of the Deadliest Plague in History," about the 1918 pandemic, has surged to become #1 on the New York Times bestseller list this past week. After its publication in 2004, Barry dedicated more than fifteen years as a self-proclaimed activist –– educating, advising and planning for a pandemic that could impact the United States.

On Feb. 6, 2020 Navy Reads posted a review of "The Great Influenza." I'm following up that post with this email interview with the prescient, farsighted author. He offers his views about truth-telling during a national crisis, the CAPT Crozier controversy, Navy's role in 1918 and now, and of course what's on his reading list.

BD: Your dedication of "The Great Influenza" was "To my Darling Anne and to the spirit that was Paul Lewis." Would you please remind us, why Paul Lewis? How should we all remember him?

JB: Lewis was an outstanding leading civilian scientist who became a Navy officer when the war started. He was a tragic figure. A scientist, brilliant, with an incredibly promising early career, he judged himself a failure partly because he could not develop a vaccine for influenza. Later, while seeking a vaccine for yellow fever he ended up infecting himself in a laboratory accident and dying of the disease. In fact I think there is a good chance it was a suicide. I just found his story moving and I wanted to honor him in some way. The book opens and closes with him.

HM1 Matthew Oberg advises people to get their pneumococcal vaccine at NH Bremerton, June 2015

BD: In what ways was the military, especially military researchers, important to the story of the 1918-1920 pandemic?

JB: Virtually every top scientist in the country became a military officer. The deans of medical school became colonels. The entire Rockefeller University (then called the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research) was incorporated into the army. Most of the science done in the pandemic was done by these people while in the military. All of them were trying to find an answer to the disease. They tried things we are trying now, such as using convalescent serum, and they did develop vaccines against secondary bacterial pneumonias. If you get an anti-pneumococcus vaccine today, it's a descendant of what was developed back then.

BD: What is your take on the way commanding officer Navy Capt. Brett Crozier dealt with the COVID-19 outbreak aboard USS Theodore Roosevelt?

JB: He did what leaders are supposed to do. Take care of people they are responsible for, as opposed to those above them.

CAPT Crozier, CO, USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71). (Photo by Seaman Alexander Williams)

BD: You've said the most important lesson from 1918 is "tell the truth." Do you think Americans are getting the truth today?

JB: We are (getting the truth) from public health leaders and from many politicians, Republican and Democrat –– governors in Ohio, New York, Louisiana, off the top of my head. Unfortunately we are getting less than that from politicians in other places, including the White House.

United States Marine Corps COVID-19 poster. (LCPL Leslie Alcarez)

BD: Should there be more emphasis on various kinds of widespread testing in order to provide more data to epidemiologists, governors and others?

JB: Absolutely. Testing is everything. Think of a guerrilla war. You can't fight an enemy effectively unless you can identify that enemy. 

BD: (During the 1918 pandemic, once people confronted the truth and adapted to realities, some places like San Francisco came together as a community.) What are some good things that are coming out of the COVID-19 crisis?

JB: I think there has been a sense of community, that we are all in this together.  I think people are largely helping each other. I live in New Orleans and know some homeless people. A guy told me yesterday he almost cries because people have been so generous to him. My neighbor is a dentist and gave all his masks and gloves to a hospital, and he continues to treat emergency cases without an N95 mask. I'm over 70 and younger friends have volunteered to get groceries for me. A lot of little things like that add up.

BD: During this extended self-quarantine period of isolation, many people have more time to read. Who are some of your lifelong-favorite authors and books (of any genre)?

JB: Classic fiction mostly. Faulkner. Russian novels. I expected to do a lot of reading when I stopped going to my office, but right now I'm busier than any other time in my life. Communicating with scientists around the world, the media, trying to get people to comply with public health guidelines.

BD: What about books specifically for Navy readers; anything you'd recommend with a nautical, maritime or leadership theme?

JB: No nautical themes. Well, a river is in there. Always meant to read a Russian novel by a Nobel laureate, Mikhail Sholokhov, "And Quiet Flows the Don." That's the only book I've read lately and it's a great book. About Russia in World War I and the Russian Revolution. 

BD: Finally, are you considering a book perhaps on the COVID-19 pandemic? What are your book plans for the future?

JB: A week ago I'd have said no, but now I'm considering it.

###

Barry advised panels and groups under both the Bush and Obama administrations and helped develop stockpiles, plans and preparations for a pandemic. In every meeting he said he "pushed" the importance of starting out by telling the truth.

In addition to promoting truth-telling, Barry says that a federally guided and states-aligned response should prioritize providing protective equipment for frontline health care providers; testing, isolation and contact tracing; and sustained quarantine and stay-at-home measures while a vaccine is developed.

Barry is a Distinguished Scholar and adjunct faculty at Tulane University.

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Throughout 2020, Navy Reads intends to post other author interviews. Recently Navy Reads featured an interview with Michael Junge, author of "Crimes of Command." A review of Junge's book included a report about the firing of CAPT Brett Crozier, CO of USS Theodore Roosevelt. Since then, Acting SECNAV Modly was asked to resign after remarks he made aboard T.R.

Lt.Gen. Honore directs paratroopers in September 2005 during relief efforts along the Gulf Coast.

As this is posted, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael Gilday and Acting Navy Secretary James McPherson recommended reinstatement of Crozier as commanding officer of T.R. However, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Army Gen. Mark Milley, asked for a "broader inquiry." A decision on Crozier's fate is expected this week, according to news reports.

In a televised interview yesterday, retired Army Lt. Gen. Russel L. Honoré said, "It should be a simple decision for the Secretary of Defense." Honore was commander of Joint Task Force Katrina, coordinating military relief efforts for Hurricane Katrina in 2005 across the Gulf Coast. Like John Barry, he calls Louisiana Home. Honoré suggested DOD listen to its admirals. "This is the legacy of our great Navy. It should be an easy decision for Secretary Esper."

'All Hell Breaking Loose'

Review by Bill Doughty–

The United States Navy may face ongoing existential threats because of pandemics, mega-droughts, fires, massive storms, and rising sea levels – caused by or made worse by climate change.

That's according to scientists, analysts and educators, including Michael T. Klare in "All Hell Breaking Loose: The Pentagon's Perspective on Climate Change" (Metropolitan Books, Henry Holt Company, 2019). 

Already impacted by COVID-19, the military is also straining to retain readiness as it confronts potential threats in the Arctic as ice melts and nations, especially Russia, compete for resources and sea lanes. And with increasing calls for Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief missions in response to devastating storms, diseases and environmental destruction, military leaders are concerned about "the specter of disaster clusters."

This relevant book is a well-written and sobering look at the threats, impact and mitigation response by the military, especially led by the Navy.

Chapter One opens with a Senate Armed Service Committee hearing of April 9, 2013, in which then Commander, U.S. Pacific Command Adm. Samuel J. Locklear testified about the threat of not only China and North Korea, but also climate change: "Increasingly severe weather patterns and rising sea levels threaten lives and property," Locklear said, "and could even threaten the loss of low-lying nations."

"A similar assessment was provided in 2019 by one of Locklear's successors at what had been rechristened the Indo-Pacific Command. Asked by Senator Elizabeth Warren of the Senate Armed Services Committee to discuss the impact of climate change on operational readiness in his area of responsibility, Admiral Philip S. Davidson replied: 'The immediate manifestation, ma'am, is the number of ecological disaster events that are happening.' In just the past few months, he indicated, the Indo-Pacific Command had been called on to assist with emergency relief operations in the U.S.-administered Northern Mariana Islands after they were struck by Super Typhoon Yutu. 'Our assistance in terms of humanitarian assistance and disaster relief, our ability to command and control, to marshal troops, to deliver logistics, is important training for the region.'"

Klare shows how training and warfighting are negatively impacted by more frequent heatwaves, when it becomes too deadly to operate. Conversely, the military is also challenged in super-cold environments such as Red Dawn-like exercises in Norway in sub-Arctic terrain, in which hundreds of U.S. Marines must train in amphibious assaults. There are "distinctive challenges in fighting in snow-covered sub-zero conditions," according to Klare.

"Climate change," he says, "will make itself felt in multiple situations, increasing the risk that long-standing hostilities will erupt into full-scale war." Another likely scenario: millions of displaced people as mega-fires, freshwater shortages, monster storms and rising sea levels cause mass migration.

U.S. Navy Lt. Jose Garcia inactivates Ebola virus at Bushrod Island, Liberia, Oct. 2014.

Klare writes, "For many observers, the Ebola epidemic of 2014-2016 represents a preview of what can be expected in the future as global warming advances, certain infectious diseases extend their range and vulnerable states prove unable to cope with the multiple challenges of extreme weather, resource scarcity, and inadequate public institutions." He cites Zika, dengue and malaria as other diseases of concern.

The Navy has a history of responding to crises, including within our own country, but also throughout the world. "Our country is a compassionate, generous and caring nation with a long history of aiding those around the world who are impacted by disasters," said Adm. Kurt Tidd as a relief effort commenced to the Caribbean in response to Hurricane Maria in 2017. 

That year, Hurricanes Harvey, Irma and Maria "pummeled Texas, Florida and Puerto Rico, prompting an unprecedented U.S. military response." 

Perhaps the biggest existential threat of global climate change to the Navy, though, is the impact to its bases themselves, especially those located at or near sea level.

Klare gives an extensive report on the dangers of rising sea levels to Navy bases, especially in Virginia and Florida, particularly Norfolk (featured in a special hosted by Arnold Schwarzegger), Hampton Roads Mayport, Jacksonville and Key West. Scientists predict a possible nearly two-meter sea level rise by the end of the century; a one meter rise would "inundate Norfolk," headquarters of the U.S. Atlantic Fleet and many other commands.

Rear Adm. Bolivar gives thumbs up prior to surveying damage from Hurricane Michael, Oct. 2018.

He quotes Commander Navy Region Southeast Rear Admiral Babette Bolivar, who issued an evacuation order in September 2017 for nonessential personnel from Naval Air Station Key West as Hurricane Irma "carved its destructive path" toward Florida. A year later Hurricanes Florence and Michael caused destruction at Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort and Marine Corps Training Depot Parris Island, South Carolina.

"When Hurricane Florence shifted course and headed to the Carolinas instead of the Norfolk area in September 2018, those bases were severely impacted; normal operations were suspended and nonessential personnel ordered to evacuate. Camp Lejuene, a major Marine training center, was especially hard hit by Florence, with some nine hundred buildings damaged or destroyed. As sea levels rise, flooding of Lejeune's low-lying areas is likely to occur on a daily basis and large parts of it can expect to be fully inundated during future hurricanes. Parris Island, the Marines' main East Coast recruit training facility, and MCAS Beaufort, home to six Marine F/A-18 fighter squadrons, are equally at risk of inundation. At present, a storm surge of five to ten feet induced by a Category 1 hurricane would cover some 90 percent of Parris Island; by 2100, almost the entire base would be covered by ten to fifteen feet of water. MCAS Beaufort faces similar risks." (Klare cites Union of Concerned Scientists studies and reports.)

We read how Naval Base Coronado in San Diego is at risk, as is fire-prone Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton, also in California. Wildfires threaten bases throughout the Southwest, and Alaska military facilities are in danger from shoreline erosion and/or thawing permafrost. Offutt Air Force Base near Omaha, Nebraska, home of the U.S. Strategic Command, is seriously affected by flooding due to storms.

Aircrewmen load an Air-Deployable Expendable Ice Buoy onto a Royal Danish Air Force C-130 aircraft at Thule Air Force Base in Greenland Sept. 7, 2017, in preparation for deployment in the high Arctic as part of the International Arctic Buoy Program (IABP). (U.S. Navy photo by John F. Williams)

Overseas bases and sites, including in the Middle East, Africa and Central and South America are also under threat from the effects of global warming. 

"For forces operating in the Asia-Pacific area, sea-level rise and extreme storm events are likely to pose the greatest dangers," Klare says, focusing on Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands, which is the location of the Ronald Reagan Ballistic Missile Defense Site, at risk from saltwater intrusion into its freshwater aquifer.

"Elsewhere in the region, the DoD faces a substantial climate threat to its cluster of air and naval bases in Japan. These installations, including the naval base at Yokosuka on Japan's main island of Honshu, and Kadena Air Force Base, on Okinawa, are among the most important U.S. military facilities in Asia. Yokosuka, located on the mouth of Tokyo Harbor, hosts the USS Ronald Reagan (America's only forward-deployed carrier) and its supporting vessels; Kadena is the largest Air Force facility in East Asia, housing the 18th Air Wing and a host of other units. Both of these bases, and many others nearby, are located on or close to the Pacific Ocean and are regularly menaced by typhoons. As global warming proceeds, these facilities – like their counterparts in the estern United States – will be exposed to rising seas and an ever-increasing risk of extremely powerful storms."

Using science-based research and common sense, the Navy has shown significant leadership in the approach to climate change for more than ten years, with admirals and civilian leaders unafraid to speak truth to power.

In fact, 2016 marked a watershed year as then Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus launched the Great Green Fleet, named in stark contrast to President Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet that sailed more than a century earlier, which was powered strictly by carbon-based fuel. The GGF was essentially the John C. Stennis (CVN 74) Strike Group, led by the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier and including the guided-missile cruiser USS Mobile Bay (CG 53) and guided-missile destroyers USS Chung-Hoon (DDG 93) and USS William P. Lawrence (DDG 110), each running on alternatives to conventional petroleum. The surface ships steamed underway using a hybrid fuel mixture.

Then SECNAV Ray Mabus talks Navy sustainability at the greengov symposium, June 2015.

Klare acknowledges Mabus's initiative may have had only a minimal contribution to slowing the advance of global warning, "Still, the Great Green Fleet does represent a significant effort by a large and powerful organization to at least start transitioning from carbon-based fuels to climate-friendlier alternatives."

Klare concludes with a hopeful look at how the insight and initiatives by the military, including net-zero goals, could be emulated by the civilian community.

"Equally insightful is the U.S. military's emphasis on cooperation with the militaries of friendly nations in addressing the perils of climate change. From the very beginning, senior officials have stressed the need to work with other countries in reducing their own climate change vulnerabilities, thereby enhancing regional and international stability. In accordance with this precept, U.S. services have collaborated with foreign militaries in preparing for extreme event, for example, by stockpiling emergency relief supplies, conducting joint disaster relief drills, and helping to harden critical facilities. Although modest in comparison to what is actually needed to protect the world from warming's severe effects, these endeavors demonstrate a basic understanding that human survival at this perilous moment will require international collaboration of just this sort."

The Pentagon has confronted the issue of climate change in various publications and plans: DoD's "Climate Change Adaptation Roadmap;" Quadrennial Defense Reviews over the past ten years; DoD Directive 4715.21, "Climate Change Adaptation and Resilience;" 2019's "Report on Effects of A Changing Climate to the Department of Defense;" and Naval Facilities and Engineering Command's "Climate Change Installation Adaptation and Resilience Planning Handbook."

'The Plague' & Listening to John Prine

by Bill Doughty–

The COVID-19 virus killed John Prine April 7, 2020.

Prine, one of the best American songwriters, was a military Veteran. He served in the Army in West Germany in the 60s during the Vietnam War and became a voice for justice, writing songs such as "Paradise," "Some Humans Ain't Human," "Unwed Fathers," "The Great Compromise," and "Sam Stone" ("Sam Stone came home/ To the wife and family/ After serving in the conflict overseas...").

Prine balanced humor and pathos, and always honored pure American country music. He wrote and sang "Please Don't Bury Me," "Illegal Smile," "Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore," and "Dear Abby" ("Dear Abby, dear Abby/ My feet are too long/ My hair's falling out and my rights are all wrong/ My friends they all tell me that I've no friends at all...").

Next to Bob Dylan, as a storyteller-songwriter he perhaps had no parallel. Just listen to his sad-lonely "Hello In There," "Donald and Lydia," "Souvenirs," "Mexican Home," "Lake Marie," and "Far From Me": ("And the sky is black and still now/ On the hill where the angels sing/ Ain't it funny how an old broken bottle/ Looks just like a diamond ring...").

Prine circa 1970s

Prine also co-wrote, with Steve Goodman, David Allan Coe's "You Never Even Call Me By My Name." But one of his masterpieces is "Angel From Montgomery," performed by, among others, Bonnie Raitt and Emmylou Harris ("Just give me one thing/ That I can hold on to/ To believe in this livin'/ Is just a hard way to go...").

Those lyrics share the theme of Albert Camus's "The Plague" ("La Peste," 1948,  translated by Stuart Gilbert, Alfred A. Knopf; Vintage, Random House). Camus is a rewarding read and brief escape for these COVID days of mandated self-quarantine. Like Prine's lyrics, Camus's prose captures surreal slices of life, often with deep melancholy, and, to misquote Hanna Arendt, a "banality of reality in a time of pestilence."

Camus in 1957

Camus writes of an imaginary plague in the town of Oran, French Algeria, in the 1940s. "The Plague" follows Dr. Bernard Rieux and other characters who all delay facing reality and taking action at first, despite obvious signs highlighted by hundreds of dead rats. "...Many concessions had been made to a desire not to alarm the public." The Prefect (government official) refuses to realize the danger of the outbreak, pushes a failed plan, and then tries to avoid responsibility. Eventually people self-exile in their homes; "commerce, too, had died with the plague."

Camus writes of "manpower" shortfalls, overwhelmed mortuaries, mass graves, use of cotton masks, despondency, fatigue, and faux therapies, including "peppermint lozenges." The dignity and dedication of the health care provider is at the center of the narrative.

In a "Week of Prayer" in Oran, in which people are encouraged to gather in church, the local priest, Father Paneloux preaches a  passionate sermon that starts, "Calamity has come on you, my brethren, and, my brethren, you deserve it." The priest blames the "scourge" on nonbelievers and "enemies of God."

Rome plague angel of death Levasseur, Jules-Elie Delaunay

Paneloux says the people have been "sentenced, for an unknown crime, to an indeterminate period of punishment." But as the story unfolds, the priest has a revelation, especially after working closely with Dr. Rieux. "What's true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well. It helps men to rise above themselves," Camus writes.

"The evil that is in the world always comes out of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding." As a result of the devastating outbreak, one of Camus's characters says, "All I maintain is that on this earth there are pestilences and there are victims, and it's up to us, so far as possible, not to join forces with the pestilences." People, including key character Tarrou, volunteer to be part of "sanitary groups" to help others as a "logical" way to confront the disease.

Though the people want to return to the life they'd known as soon as possible, the infection returns, evolving from bubonic to pneumonic. Poor people suffer proportionately more than the privileged, wealthy population. As people become more frustrated, it "made everyone aware that an ugly mood was developing among us."

"Meanwhile the authorities had another cause for anxiety in the difficulty of maintaining the food-supply. Profiteers were taking a hand and purveying at enormous prices essential foodstuffs not available in the shops. The result was that poor families were in great straits, while the rich went short of practically nothing. Thus, whereas plague by its impartial ministrations should have promoted equality among our townsfolk, it now had the opposite effect and, thanks to the habitual conflict of cupidities, exacerbated the sense of injustice rankling in men's hearts."

"The newspapers, needless to say, complied with the instructions given them: optimism at all costs," Camus writes. "To form a correct idea about the courage and composure talked about by our journalists you had only to visit one of the quarantine depots or isolation camps established by our authorities."

In his other fiction and nonfiction, Camus wrote for the French Resistance during World War II, and against totalitarian communism after the war. Knowing that, it's easy to see the symbolism and metaphors to war and peace, superstition and logic, terror and freedom, and fear and courage.
In "The Plague," Camus also paces his story with beautiful hues of prose. For example:

"Once they were on the pier they saw the sea spread out before them, a gently heaving expanse of deep-piled velvet, supple and sleek as a creature of the wild. They sat down on a boulder facing the open. Slowly the waters rose and sank, and with their tranquil breathing sudden oily glints formed and flickered over the surface in a haze of broken lights. Before them the darkness stretched out into infinity. Rieux could feel under his hand the gnarled, weather-worn visage of the rocks ... After the first shock of cold had passed and he came back to the surface the water seemed tepid. When he had taken a few strokes he found that the sea was warm that night with the warmth of autumn seas and borrow from the shore the accumulated heat of the long days of summer. The movement of his feet left a foaming wake as he swam steadily ahead, and the water slipped along his arms to close in tightly on his legs ... Rieux lay on his back and stayed motionless, gazing up at the dome of sky lit by the stars and moon. He drew a deep breath."

Among other themes explored in "The Plague": reality and illusion, life and death, love and friendship, knowledge, memories, separation, and good and evil. Similar themes can be found in the passionate lyrics of John Prine.

Prine's tender, funny, sad, and sometimes absurd revelations about life are a source of joy in these trying times. His song "Summer's End" about separation is especially poignant this weekend:

     Valentines, break hearts and minds at random
     That ol' Easter egg ain't got a leg to stand on
     Well I can see that you can't win for trying
     And New Year's Eve is bound to leave you crying

     Come on home
     Come on home
     No you don't have to be alone
     Just come on home

Thankfully, John Prine left us an impressive number of recordings, including great live performances and some recent duet collections, including with Iris Dement. "In Spite of Ourselves," sung with Dement, is one of his funniest, saltiest creations: ("She likes ketchup on her scrambled eggs/ Swears like a sailor when she shaves her legs/ She takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'/ I'm never gonna let her go...").

Prine inspired other new Folk/Americana artists, including, among others, Jason Isbell, Brandi Carlile, and Prine protege Sturgill Simpson. Yesterday, Simpson announced he is self-quarantining till April 19, diagnosed with COVID-19. Simpson coupled his announcement with a passionate complaint about his inability to get a coronavirus test until April 6 even though he has had symptoms that brought him to the ER March 13.

Navy veteran Simpson's "A Sailor's Guide to Earth" album follows Prine and Camus themes of self-awareness, resilience and redemption. Simpson's "Guide" features a song, "Sea Stories," about a WestPac cruise and becoming a shellback ("Sailing out on them high seas/ Feels just like being born..."). Simpson describes what he still carries with him from his transition from "pollywog" to "shellback," wrote:

     Memories make forever stains
     Still got salt running through my veins
     I've got sea stories
     And my shellback, too

Camus and Prine wrote existential stories while carrying their own "shellbacks." World War II influenced Camus, who saw France invaded by the Nazis and witnessed the rise of Soviet communism after the war. 

Photo by Sgt. Ken Scar

The Vietnam War affected Army veteran Prine. In his concerts he would tell stories and provide commentary, including what it was like visiting the Vietnam War Memorial, looking up the names of friends he lost in the war and the power of seeing ones own reflection in the black marble.

Both creators faced multiple life's traumas. Both painted their words from a surrealistic, sometimes absurdist, palette. Case in point: both Camus and Prine brought parrots in bars into their stories. From "The Plague": the room was empty, the air humming with flies; in a yellow cage on the bar a parrot squatted on its perch, all its feathers drooping." From Prine's "Space Monkey": "In a karaoke bar having a few drinks with some of his friends/ There was the dog that flew Sputnik/ And a blind red-headed, one legged parrot/ Who had done some minor research for Dow Chemical..."

In this time of COVID, we remember Camus, who can help us understand what has happened and how we react, logically and thoughtfully and with a sense of humor intact, making informed decisions based on science.

And we remember John Prine for his existential story songs that could make us laugh, cry, contemplate, and imagine, tongue-in-cheek, life and beyond. From "When I Get to Heaven": "When I get to heaven, I'm gonna shake God's hand/ Thank him for more blessings than one man can stand... // Yeah when I get to heaven, I'm gonna take that wristwatch off my arm/ What are you gonna do with time after you've bought the farm?..."

"Pollywogs" aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD 1) run the obstacle course Nov 25, 2017 to become "shellbacks" during a crossing the line ceremony. The crossing-the-line ceremony is a naval tradition which recognizes when members of the crew cross the equator for the first time. Wasp transited to Sasebo, Japan to conduct a turnover with the USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD 6) as the forward-deployed flagship of the amphibious forces in the U.S. 7th Fleet area of operations. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Levingston Lewis/Released)

An Interview with 'Crimes of Command' Author

by Bill Doughty–

Naval War College professor CAPT Michael Junge is a forward-thinking former CO (of USS Whidbey Island), who has strong feelings about how the Navy can improve its culture and continue to develop good leaders without losing well-trained, capable and courageous commanders – leaders who aren't afraid to lean forward. As a follow up to the Navy Reads review of his "Crimes of Command," we present this interview with Professor Junge. It's about leadership, a post-COVID Navy, artificial intelligence, transparency, and critical thinking. We also asked him for some of his favorite reading and online recommendations. The interview was conducted online earlier this week.

BD: Would a culture of institutional forgiveness promote less risk-averse leadership/leaders?

MJ: This is a really difficult question AND one I had to spend some time thinking about.

First of all, the idea of a culture of institutional forgiveness is something we have to think about – what that looks like – and then the second thing is what it means to be risk-averse. Around 20 years ago there was a movement within the Department of Defense to eliminate accidents, a movement away from the previous idea of reducing accidents. Now, we should all know that you can't get rid of all accidents, there is always going to be some small percentage of things that go wrong. We can make them rare. We can reduce them to almost nothing. We cannot eliminate them. So I think that might be the first thing we would have to look at – what are we willing to forgive and what is unforgivable?

Then-CDR Junge helms USS Whidbey Island’s personnel launch during a 2008 port visit to Camden, ME.

The second thing culturally would be taking a look at how Naval Aviation handles their human factors boards and possibly moving that across more of the fleet. In Human Factors boards, and I hope I get this right, any pilot can be challenged on an action or can admit to an action and then have it discussed amongst the group of fellow pilots in the ready room. This includes the commanding officer. The surface Warfare Community does not have anything like that and I don't think the submarine community does either, so that would that would be a place to start.

Finally, we have to remember that every institution is made up of individuals and too often we conflate the two. Senior officers are not the Navy, and when they protect themselves, thinking they are protecting the Navy, they do a disservice to everyone. Forgiveness needs to be both individual and institutional and neither is an easy thing to grant. 

BD: Do you think some senior leaders, now more than in the past, use the Rickover-expressed view of responsibility/culpability to scapegoat the commanders below them? If so, how can that be stopped?

MJ: I'm not so sure if it's using a subordinate as a scapegoat or the fear that if someone junior isn’t sacrificed, then the superior commander is the one who's going to get fired. Either one is a really poor way to look at command.

Adm. Arleigh Burke, Nov. 23, 1960, at pep rally on eve of Navy-Army football game.

The area that I think could really really have impact on removals is just basic communications between immediate superiors in command and their subordinates. Both of the Navy-wide reports that looked at commanding officer detachments for cause indicated lack of communication and lack of discussion between commanders and their subordinate commanders. This is definitely something that is a more modern Navy problem than we saw in the past. 

There's an anecdote of Arleigh Burke as Chief of Naval Operations going from Norfolk to Key West aboard ship – all told, I think the trip was two weeks. I have no idea who the last Chief of Naval Operations was that spent the night afloat at sea. Now most ship visits are a couple of hours – a brief visit with commanding officer, a brief visit with the Chiefs Mess, then an all-hands call on the flight deck or in the hangar bay and move on. That's no way to maintain contact with what's going on in the deck plates. If that's also what’s happening between 06 and 05 commanders, that minimal level of contact and not getting to know the officers of a ship’s wardroom or the Chiefs; that's going to cause a level of unfamiliarity that then removes the benefit of the doubt for a ship.

I had command a decade ago, and of the four bosses I had, I only really felt close to one of them – and he got underway with us…repeatedly. Nelson's subordinates are referred to as a “Band of Brothers” and I really wonder whether or not we have that any longer amongst our commanders. 

BD: Considering the smaller number of personnel needed to operate newer ships and other platforms, would there be a commensurate need for Sailors who have achieved Kohlberg's third level of moral development: the postconventional level?

A Sailor removes deck material aboard USS George H.W. Bush in July 2019 (MCSA Bodie Estep)

MJ: I kind of reject the opening premise of this question. I served on five different hull types and saw smaller crews and larger crews and I don't agree that a smaller number of personnel are needed to operate newer ships. I do agree that we are moving towards a smaller number of people operating newer ships, but when we do that we start losing track of who is doing the basic maintenance. Who is doing the cleaning, the painting, the corrosion control? Those are things that still have to happen, and as you reduce the crew size you increase workload on individual sailors.

I'll also be brutally honest and say that the vast majority of sailors will never need to achieve the third level of moral development. The vast majority of sailors are OK operating in the rules following environment, doing what is right based on norms and rules. And that's part of why we have to have rules that can be followed ...

BD: Do you think artificial intelligence can assume the role of rote-operating Sailors as described in Herman Wouk's "The Caine Mutiny": "If you’re not an idiot, but find yourself in the Navy, you can only operate well by pretending to be one"? Will deployment of AI accelerate after this pandemic?

MJ: This quote is one that has come up a lot in the last 10 years among conversations I've been in but a lot of it has to do with the other part of that quote – “The Navy is a master plan designed by geniuses for execution by idiots." That made perfect sense, especially to a very junior officer serving in World War II. From that level, the entire organization of the Navy looked like it was smart and well put together. The more I study the Second World War, the more I think it was really a Navy of resilient individuals who made things work rather than unintentional creation.

I'm also skeptical of AI in general. One of the first problems is we can’t agree on a definition of what AI is – and if we can’t define it then we really can’t talk about it. You can't talk about whether you're going to use it or not if you don’t know what “it” is. But if artificial intelligence can do things to take some of the cognitive load off of sailors then it's possible we'll see more but I think we're a long way away from having ships that are unmanned or even optionally manned or even the level of, say, a modern cargo ship.

HTFN Allyson Shay welds aboard USS Whidbey Island, July 7, 2016. (MC2 Nathan McDonald)

Regardless of how good artificial intelligence becomes, unless the AI is capable of cleaning, corrosion control, or painting, someone's going to have to do those. I think we'd be far better served to spend time figuring out a better design for a watertight door or better and longer lasting paint or better design to prevent corrosion like ensuring that the deck drains are actually the lowest point of a deck and not the highest point than worry about finding artificial intelligence to help reduce the cognitive load for a combat scenario where we don't even have sufficient ordnance to launch against a notional enemy.

BD: Why should senior leaders welcome transparency, especially in peacetime, as long as it doesn't violate operational security?

MJ: The important part about transparency is that transparency is how seniors educate subordinates on how and why a decision is made. That way, when speed of execution is needed, the subordinate understands the rationale behind how the boss thinks and can execute both the stated and intended mission.

When a commander just says “go do it” and doesn't explain why or doesn't allow for questions to be asked then that's what the subordinate learns – tell people to execute a decision. Then you lose that resilience we need. So that's where transparency is important.

One of the things found in the Greeneville/Ehime Maru collision was junior watchstanders knowing something was wrong, but either trusting the captain, or afraid to question a captain known for his operational acumen. But, he was wrong, those people didn't speak up and that led to disastrous results.

Capt. Brett Crozier, commanding officer of the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71), addresses the crew during an all hands call on the ship’s flight deck Dec. 15, 2019. Theodore Roosevelt was underway conducting routine training in the Eastern Pacific Ocean. (Photo by MCSN Kaylianna Genier)

BD: The current COVID-19 pandemic presents threats, disruptions and changes. What do you foresee changing in the Navy when we all get back on our feet after this?

MJ: I'm not sure I really see anything changing in the Navy when we all get back on our feet after this. Mostly because, as I say this, as I write this, the operational Navy has really tried to go about business as usual. But that's the operational side; the shore side should and could be taking some serious lessons here about telework and the opening up of more jobs to more telework.

There’s a chance for some tremendous solutions for efficiency, better work-life integration, and overall productivity if we just look for them. Lots of people in DC commute two to four hours each day; that’s just plain-old lost time and productivity that can be regained for all sorts of things.

Rear Adm. Shoshana S. Chatfield, president of U.S. Naval War College, attends Quartermaster 1st Class Jessie Jowers’s reenlistment ceremony via FaceTime at NWC, March 20, 2020. Jowers reenlisted for an additional four years. Friends and colleagues attended in support of his dedication to the U.S. Navy and practiced social distancing by remaining at least six feet apart due to the COVID-19 virus. (Photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Tyler D. John)

BD: Re critical thinking: What books do you recommend to people to help them think about thinking?

MJ: I recommend first and foremost any of the Freakonomics books. Secondly, I recommend two books by Ashley Merryman and Po Bronson. The first is “Nurtureshock” and the second is “Top Dog.”

“Nurtureshock” is about child raising, which may seem an unconventional recommendation, but the basic fact is that half of our Sailors are below 26 years of age and many of them are just out of high school so understanding how they grew up and what impacted them is important.

“Top Dog” is a scientific look at success.

Both Bronson-Merryman books take a kind of a Freakonomics, unconventional wisdom approach to the subjects. After that, anything on behavioral economics. 

BD: Who are some of your favorite all-time, any genre authors and books?

Neil Gaiman (Wikipedia Commons, Kyle Cassidy.

MJ: I grew up largely reading fantasy and science fiction and have read and reread “The Hobbit,” “The Lord of the Rings,” “Starship Troopers,” and “Ender's Game.” Robert Heinlein is probably my single favorite author. Neil Gaiman is my favorite living author. 

BD: Any specific recent books on online resources you'd recommend for these stay-at-home days?

MJ: I start with a YouTube channel called the “School of Life” and another called “Crash Course.” I find videos are easier to help me make connections and all these episodes are fairly concise – so much more comprehensible than longer writings.  They don’t substitute for those longer writings, but they do complement them.

BD: Are you considering another book? What does the future hold for you?

Michael Junge, courtesy photo

MJ: That’s a really good question. I am working on a revised, expanded, and largely new version of “Crimes of Command” – likely even with a new title. So much happened in 2017, 2018, 2019, and now in 2020 that I think I can add some more insight into what's going on. I’m also want to write a book on the USS Belknap and USS John F. Kennedy collision. I have a concept for that in my head, so that's also in the works.

But, before all that happens I need to find a post-Navy retirement job and that is taking up a lot of my thinking time, so we'll see where things go.

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A big thanks and Aloha to CAPT Junge for this interview, a follow-up to our post earlier this week on his insightful book "Crimes of Command," which includes Junge's biography.

(My previous Navy Reads blogpost also included a commentary about the firing of CAPT Brett Crozier, CO of USS Theodore Roosevelt. Since that post, Acting Secretary of the Navy Modly flew to Guam to address the crew on the 1MC, during which he called Crozier "stupid" and "naive" and complained repeatedly that Crozier had complained and used poor judgment for how he tried to get help for his crew during a COVID-19 outbreak. On April 7, however, Modly apologized and resigned, reportedly at the direction of his chain of command. In COVID-19 press conferences this week, Commander in Chief President Trump mocked CAPT Crozier, first on April 6 – "this isn't a literature class" – and again on April 7 (after claiming he "would not have asked for" Modly's resignation), saying Crozier "didn't have to be Ernest Hemingway." That comment reminded me that Hemingway was Senator John S. McCain's inspiration, especially when McCain, a naval aviator and hero, was a POW in Vietnam. In fact, we published a post Aug. 12, 2018 about McCain's Hemingway inspiration. A related recommended read is Yahoo News reporter Michael Walsh's Aug. 26, 2018 remembrance of McCain: "The bell tolls for John McCain: How Hemingway's antifascist hero shaped the man." – Bill Doughty)

McCain and Hemingway photo illustration from Yahoo News