An Interview with 'Crimes of Command' Author

by Bill Doughty–

Naval War College professor CAPT Michael Junge is a forward-thinking former CO (of USS Whidbey Island), who has strong feelings about how the Navy can improve its culture and continue to develop good leaders without losing well-trained, capable and courageous commanders – leaders who aren't afraid to lean forward. As a follow up to the Navy Reads review of his "Crimes of Command," we present this interview with Professor Junge. It's about leadership, a post-COVID Navy, artificial intelligence, transparency, and critical thinking. We also asked him for some of his favorite reading and online recommendations. The interview was conducted online earlier this week.

BD: Would a culture of institutional forgiveness promote less risk-averse leadership/leaders?

MJ: This is a really difficult question AND one I had to spend some time thinking about.

First of all, the idea of a culture of institutional forgiveness is something we have to think about – what that looks like – and then the second thing is what it means to be risk-averse. Around 20 years ago there was a movement within the Department of Defense to eliminate accidents, a movement away from the previous idea of reducing accidents. Now, we should all know that you can't get rid of all accidents, there is always going to be some small percentage of things that go wrong. We can make them rare. We can reduce them to almost nothing. We cannot eliminate them. So I think that might be the first thing we would have to look at – what are we willing to forgive and what is unforgivable?

Then-CDR Junge helms USS Whidbey Island’s personnel launch during a 2008 port visit to Camden, ME.

The second thing culturally would be taking a look at how Naval Aviation handles their human factors boards and possibly moving that across more of the fleet. In Human Factors boards, and I hope I get this right, any pilot can be challenged on an action or can admit to an action and then have it discussed amongst the group of fellow pilots in the ready room. This includes the commanding officer. The surface Warfare Community does not have anything like that and I don't think the submarine community does either, so that would that would be a place to start.

Finally, we have to remember that every institution is made up of individuals and too often we conflate the two. Senior officers are not the Navy, and when they protect themselves, thinking they are protecting the Navy, they do a disservice to everyone. Forgiveness needs to be both individual and institutional and neither is an easy thing to grant. 

BD: Do you think some senior leaders, now more than in the past, use the Rickover-expressed view of responsibility/culpability to scapegoat the commanders below them? If so, how can that be stopped?

MJ: I'm not so sure if it's using a subordinate as a scapegoat or the fear that if someone junior isn’t sacrificed, then the superior commander is the one who's going to get fired. Either one is a really poor way to look at command.

Adm. Arleigh Burke, Nov. 23, 1960, at pep rally on eve of Navy-Army football game.

The area that I think could really really have impact on removals is just basic communications between immediate superiors in command and their subordinates. Both of the Navy-wide reports that looked at commanding officer detachments for cause indicated lack of communication and lack of discussion between commanders and their subordinate commanders. This is definitely something that is a more modern Navy problem than we saw in the past. 

There's an anecdote of Arleigh Burke as Chief of Naval Operations going from Norfolk to Key West aboard ship – all told, I think the trip was two weeks. I have no idea who the last Chief of Naval Operations was that spent the night afloat at sea. Now most ship visits are a couple of hours – a brief visit with commanding officer, a brief visit with the Chiefs Mess, then an all-hands call on the flight deck or in the hangar bay and move on. That's no way to maintain contact with what's going on in the deck plates. If that's also what’s happening between 06 and 05 commanders, that minimal level of contact and not getting to know the officers of a ship’s wardroom or the Chiefs; that's going to cause a level of unfamiliarity that then removes the benefit of the doubt for a ship.

I had command a decade ago, and of the four bosses I had, I only really felt close to one of them – and he got underway with us…repeatedly. Nelson's subordinates are referred to as a “Band of Brothers” and I really wonder whether or not we have that any longer amongst our commanders. 

BD: Considering the smaller number of personnel needed to operate newer ships and other platforms, would there be a commensurate need for Sailors who have achieved Kohlberg's third level of moral development: the postconventional level?

A Sailor removes deck material aboard USS George H.W. Bush in July 2019 (MCSA Bodie Estep)

MJ: I kind of reject the opening premise of this question. I served on five different hull types and saw smaller crews and larger crews and I don't agree that a smaller number of personnel are needed to operate newer ships. I do agree that we are moving towards a smaller number of people operating newer ships, but when we do that we start losing track of who is doing the basic maintenance. Who is doing the cleaning, the painting, the corrosion control? Those are things that still have to happen, and as you reduce the crew size you increase workload on individual sailors.

I'll also be brutally honest and say that the vast majority of sailors will never need to achieve the third level of moral development. The vast majority of sailors are OK operating in the rules following environment, doing what is right based on norms and rules. And that's part of why we have to have rules that can be followed ...

BD: Do you think artificial intelligence can assume the role of rote-operating Sailors as described in Herman Wouk's "The Caine Mutiny": "If you’re not an idiot, but find yourself in the Navy, you can only operate well by pretending to be one"? Will deployment of AI accelerate after this pandemic?

MJ: This quote is one that has come up a lot in the last 10 years among conversations I've been in but a lot of it has to do with the other part of that quote – “The Navy is a master plan designed by geniuses for execution by idiots." That made perfect sense, especially to a very junior officer serving in World War II. From that level, the entire organization of the Navy looked like it was smart and well put together. The more I study the Second World War, the more I think it was really a Navy of resilient individuals who made things work rather than unintentional creation.

I'm also skeptical of AI in general. One of the first problems is we can’t agree on a definition of what AI is – and if we can’t define it then we really can’t talk about it. You can't talk about whether you're going to use it or not if you don’t know what “it” is. But if artificial intelligence can do things to take some of the cognitive load off of sailors then it's possible we'll see more but I think we're a long way away from having ships that are unmanned or even optionally manned or even the level of, say, a modern cargo ship.

HTFN Allyson Shay welds aboard USS Whidbey Island, July 7, 2016. (MC2 Nathan McDonald)

Regardless of how good artificial intelligence becomes, unless the AI is capable of cleaning, corrosion control, or painting, someone's going to have to do those. I think we'd be far better served to spend time figuring out a better design for a watertight door or better and longer lasting paint or better design to prevent corrosion like ensuring that the deck drains are actually the lowest point of a deck and not the highest point than worry about finding artificial intelligence to help reduce the cognitive load for a combat scenario where we don't even have sufficient ordnance to launch against a notional enemy.

BD: Why should senior leaders welcome transparency, especially in peacetime, as long as it doesn't violate operational security?

MJ: The important part about transparency is that transparency is how seniors educate subordinates on how and why a decision is made. That way, when speed of execution is needed, the subordinate understands the rationale behind how the boss thinks and can execute both the stated and intended mission.

When a commander just says “go do it” and doesn't explain why or doesn't allow for questions to be asked then that's what the subordinate learns – tell people to execute a decision. Then you lose that resilience we need. So that's where transparency is important.

One of the things found in the Greeneville/Ehime Maru collision was junior watchstanders knowing something was wrong, but either trusting the captain, or afraid to question a captain known for his operational acumen. But, he was wrong, those people didn't speak up and that led to disastrous results.

Capt. Brett Crozier, commanding officer of the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71), addresses the crew during an all hands call on the ship’s flight deck Dec. 15, 2019. Theodore Roosevelt was underway conducting routine training in the Eastern Pacific Ocean. (Photo by MCSN Kaylianna Genier)

BD: The current COVID-19 pandemic presents threats, disruptions and changes. What do you foresee changing in the Navy when we all get back on our feet after this?

MJ: I'm not sure I really see anything changing in the Navy when we all get back on our feet after this. Mostly because, as I say this, as I write this, the operational Navy has really tried to go about business as usual. But that's the operational side; the shore side should and could be taking some serious lessons here about telework and the opening up of more jobs to more telework.

There’s a chance for some tremendous solutions for efficiency, better work-life integration, and overall productivity if we just look for them. Lots of people in DC commute two to four hours each day; that’s just plain-old lost time and productivity that can be regained for all sorts of things.

Rear Adm. Shoshana S. Chatfield, president of U.S. Naval War College, attends Quartermaster 1st Class Jessie Jowers’s reenlistment ceremony via FaceTime at NWC, March 20, 2020. Jowers reenlisted for an additional four years. Friends and colleagues attended in support of his dedication to the U.S. Navy and practiced social distancing by remaining at least six feet apart due to the COVID-19 virus. (Photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Tyler D. John)

BD: Re critical thinking: What books do you recommend to people to help them think about thinking?

MJ: I recommend first and foremost any of the Freakonomics books. Secondly, I recommend two books by Ashley Merryman and Po Bronson. The first is “Nurtureshock” and the second is “Top Dog.”

“Nurtureshock” is about child raising, which may seem an unconventional recommendation, but the basic fact is that half of our Sailors are below 26 years of age and many of them are just out of high school so understanding how they grew up and what impacted them is important.

“Top Dog” is a scientific look at success.

Both Bronson-Merryman books take a kind of a Freakonomics, unconventional wisdom approach to the subjects. After that, anything on behavioral economics. 

BD: Who are some of your favorite all-time, any genre authors and books?

Neil Gaiman (Wikipedia Commons, Kyle Cassidy.

MJ: I grew up largely reading fantasy and science fiction and have read and reread “The Hobbit,” “The Lord of the Rings,” “Starship Troopers,” and “Ender's Game.” Robert Heinlein is probably my single favorite author. Neil Gaiman is my favorite living author. 

BD: Any specific recent books on online resources you'd recommend for these stay-at-home days?

MJ: I start with a YouTube channel called the “School of Life” and another called “Crash Course.” I find videos are easier to help me make connections and all these episodes are fairly concise – so much more comprehensible than longer writings.  They don’t substitute for those longer writings, but they do complement them.

BD: Are you considering another book? What does the future hold for you?

Michael Junge, courtesy photo

MJ: That’s a really good question. I am working on a revised, expanded, and largely new version of “Crimes of Command” – likely even with a new title. So much happened in 2017, 2018, 2019, and now in 2020 that I think I can add some more insight into what's going on. I’m also want to write a book on the USS Belknap and USS John F. Kennedy collision. I have a concept for that in my head, so that's also in the works.

But, before all that happens I need to find a post-Navy retirement job and that is taking up a lot of my thinking time, so we'll see where things go.

###

A big thanks and Aloha to CAPT Junge for this interview, a follow-up to our post earlier this week on his insightful book "Crimes of Command," which includes Junge's biography.

(My previous Navy Reads blogpost also included a commentary about the firing of CAPT Brett Crozier, CO of USS Theodore Roosevelt. Since that post, Acting Secretary of the Navy Modly flew to Guam to address the crew on the 1MC, during which he called Crozier "stupid" and "naive" and complained repeatedly that Crozier had complained and used poor judgment for how he tried to get help for his crew during a COVID-19 outbreak. On April 7, however, Modly apologized and resigned, reportedly at the direction of his chain of command. In COVID-19 press conferences this week, Commander in Chief President Trump mocked CAPT Crozier, first on April 6 – "this isn't a literature class" – and again on April 7 (after claiming he "would not have asked for" Modly's resignation), saying Crozier "didn't have to be Ernest Hemingway." That comment reminded me that Hemingway was Senator John S. McCain's inspiration, especially when McCain, a naval aviator and hero, was a POW in Vietnam. In fact, we published a post Aug. 12, 2018 about McCain's Hemingway inspiration. A related recommended read is Yahoo News reporter Michael Walsh's Aug. 26, 2018 remembrance of McCain: "The bell tolls for John McCain: How Hemingway's antifascist hero shaped the man." – Bill Doughty)

McCain and Hemingway photo illustration from Yahoo News

Mars Rocks!

By Bill Doughty

“Long live American curiosity.”

Tonight a science advisor called “Curiosity” a “one-ton automobile-size piece of American ingenuity ... sitting on the surface of Mars” that recognizes science, technology, engineering, mathematics -- and innovation.

An artist's conception of Curiosity on Mars.

Scientists, like explorers and sailors of other ages, navigated their ship and it's landing craft to the surface of the red planet, sending the largest and most complex probe rocketing at 13,000 mph to drop its cargo onto the surface of the planet with a gentle touch down.

Some of the world’s attention turned from triumphs like the London Olympics and tragedies like another shooting in the heartland.  Fascinating was the human dimension -- the hugs, handshakes and other heartfelt shows of affection.

Another administrator called it a great adventure and quoted Teddy Roosevelt, father of the U.S. Navy’s Great White Fleet:

“Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure… than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.” – Theodore Roosevelt

Recognizing the London Olympics occurring simultaneously, a scientist said, “You came back with the gold.”

“This feat you’ve seen tonight is something only the United States could do, and the Rover is made in the USA,” said a panel participant.

“I am forever humbled by the experience,” said another on the panel.  Panelists are unnamed to demonstrate the humility, cooperation and teamwork exemplified by the mission.

The first image from Curiosity on Mars.

"That great things take many people working together is one of the greatest aspects of human existence," said another.

Finally, right before the panel opened up to news media, an administrator said:  “There is no greater inspiration for Middle School students learning science, technology, engineering and mathematics than a mission to Mars.” 

Curiosity is an MUV, if you'll allow the term -- a Mars Utility Vehicle, capable of ranging far and wide.  Follow the Mars Science Laboratory mission at: NASA MSL.

Mars, named after the God of War, was an inspiration for authors like Ray Bradbury, Robert Heinlein and Edgar Rice Burroughs, all featured on Navy Reads.

Ray Bradbury: ‘Everything is Love’

by Bill Doughty

Ray Bradbury, who passed away earlier this month, may have discovered the  meaning of life: “witness and celebrate” and love life with a passion.

“There’s no use having a universe, is there?  There’s no use having a billion stars.  There’s no use having a planet Earth, if there isn’t someone here to see it.  You are the audience.  You’re here to witness and celebrate,” he said in Point Loma in 2001.

“Love is the answer to everything. It's the only reason to do anything,” he also said.

Bradbury, unable to join the military due to poor eyesight, used his eyes to read books, his mind to balance wonder with insight, and his fingers to create new worlds.  His science fiction, fantasy and horror stories were popular with soldiers and sailors in World War II, helping them escape, imagine and reflect for a few hours.

Ray Bradbury was inspired by Edgar Rice Burroughs, H.G. Wells and Jules Verne.  In the wake of the depression his family moved from Illinois to Arizona and eventually to California.  After high school he was self-educated, believing in the power of libraries and books.  

“I spent three days a week for 10 years educating myself in the public library, and it's better than college.  People should educate themselves -- you can get a complete education for no money.  At the end of 10 years, I had read every book in the library and I'd written a thousand stories.”

In Los Angeles he was mentored by Leigh Brackett and literally looked over Robert Heinlein’s shoulder as Heinlein wrote.  

The Navy Professional Reading Program includes some works of fiction, including one by Robert Heinlein, “Starship Troopers.”  Heinlein, Bradbury and Isaac Asimov are considered excellent gateway authors for young readers who discover literature through science fiction and fantasy.

Bradbury’s “Illustrated Man,” “Martian Chronicles” and “Fahrenheit 451” are revered as masterworks.  In honor of Bradbury, Apollo 15 astronauts named a crater on the moon after the Bradbury’s novel “Dandelion Wine.”

“Fahrenheit 451,” published in 1953, is seen as a classic in dystopian fiction, along with George Orwell’s “1984,” published in 1949, and Aldous Huxley’s “Brave New World,” published in 1932.  Modern dystopian tales (that may stand the test of time) are Margaret Atwood’s “The Handmaid’s Tale” (1985), Cormac McCarthy’s “The Road” (2006) and Suzanne Collins’s “The Hunger Games” (2008).

“Fahrenheit 451” continues to be a top seller.  The book celebrates books, the freedom to read and the need for a diversity of ideas.

“There are worse crimes than burning books.  One of them is not reading them,” said Bradbury.  “You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture.  Just get people to stop reading them.”

Through books we can see the world and understand what it means to be alive -- important thoughts for Father’s Day.

On his view of the meaning of life, according to Sam Weller, author of “The Bradbury Chronicles,” “His mantra to his very last breath was ‘do what you love and love what you.‘  He believed that love was the rocket fuel ... that propelled his career.  He always said that ‘everything is love.’”

Critical Curious Thinking - Mary Roach

by Bill Doughty

To misquote Forrest Gump, a book of essays is like a box of chocolates.  New York Times bestselling author Mary Roach’s The Best American Science and Nature Writing (2011) (BASNW) is a collection of curious, sweet/tart morsels for critical thinkers.

Like her own works -- Stiff, Bonk, Spook, and Packing for Mars -- Roach has fun removing the lid to reveal essays about space, time, species, mind and the universe.  As a special treat, she offers recommendations for Navy Reads readers in this blogpost, but more about that in a moment.  First, from BASNW 2011:

With help from Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, we get a goldfish view of the world and reality.  Other essays deal with chemistry, robotics, fracking and fertility.  Essays can be read in any order and some can be skipped, but I confess to enjoying each one...some more than others.

Jill Sisson Quinn takes us into the forest for an existential look at the 8-inch Ichneumon wasps that lay their eggs, Aliens-like, into the bodies of wood wasps, even into and through tree bark.

We learn about alcohol poisoning (and poisoning of alcohol), invasive species like giant Asian carp and New York City coyotes, and the mating habits of Layson albatrosses at Kaena Point, Oahu, Hawaii.

The book features works from such luminary writers as Malcolm Gladwell, Jonathan Franzen and Oliver Sacks, writing for New Yorker.  Works come from Discover, Outside, Orion, Wired, Scientific American, Atlantic and other magazines.

Editor of the overall The Best American Series, Tim Folger, introduces Roach’s selections with a lament about the lack of attention given to science in today’s culture, a view shared by critical thinkers who visit a book store and see the dwindling size of the science section.  (But, I was happy to find there were four copies of BASNW at the neighborhood Barnes & Noble.)

Folger discusses the cultural reaction to a historic discovery a year ago, Feb. 3, 2011, by the Kepler telescope.  Kepler revealed 1,235 planets orbiting other stars, doubling the number of known planets in our galaxy. [Planet Candidates (2,326 as of 2011 Dec 5)]

That discovery increased the odds of intelligent life existing in the cosmos, but because it was made a few days before the Superbowl (and perhaps for other reasons), it got very little attention.

Reading about discoveries by scientists and thinking about their insights can be as satisfying as watching football and eating chocolates.  By the way, scientists have found that chocolates can be good for you.

Mary Roach.  (Photo by David Paul Morris)

According to Mary Roach, “Make no mistake, good science writing is medicine.  It is a cure for ignorance and fallacy.  Good science writing peels away the blindness, generates wonder, brings the open palm to the forehead: ‘Oh! Now I get it!’”

A goal of the Navy Professional Reading Program is to foster critical thinking. Ancient philosophers, Enlightenment giants, military historians and popular science writers, like Roach, offer “aha” opportunities to think critically, analyze logically and act wisely.

Ms. Roach sent me her suggested reading list for better critical thinking.  Her recommendations to Navy Reads:

• Bad Science, by Ben Goldacre

• Spook:  Science Tackles the Afterlife, by Mary Roach

• The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, by Carl Sagan

• Paranormality: Why We See What Isn't There, by Richard Wiseman

• The 7 Laws of Magical Thinking:  How Irrational Beliefs Keep Us Happy, Healthy and Sane, by Matthew Hutson

“If TV were a book,” Roach told me, “I'd put Mythbusters on the list.”

From Roach’s Spook: “In my experience, the most staunchly held views are based on ignorance or accepted dogma, not carefully considered accumulations of facts." 

Heinlein, Haldeman, ERB & Mars

by Bill Doughty

Robert A. Heinlein, whose Starship Troopers is a surprising fiction title on the mostly nonfiction Navy Professional Reading Program list, owes much to Mary Shelley, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells and Edgar Rice Burroughs (ERB).  But, unlike most of the fantasy and science fiction that preceded him, Heinlein’s literary fiction opened doors to a future history through human eyes, concentrating more on the heart and hands heading to Mars than on the tools those hands operated.

If former Lt. Cmdr. Heinlein represented the WWII and Korean War period SF of his generation, then Joe Haldeman is a Vietnam-era and Post-Vietnam counterpoint starting in the early-mid 70s, especially with his masterpiece The Forever War.  Both writers established powerful characters of both genders and moved away from earlier genre fantasy and SF that tended to objectify women or stereotype people of other backgrounds or cultures.

Sir Ridley Scott

Haldeman, praised by Heinlein and vice versa, served as a combat engineer in Vietnam, where he was awarded the Purple Heart.  His combat experience shapes his writing and gives credibility to his military SF.  The Forever War concepts show up in the films Avatar  and Aliens. It will be fascinating to see how Ridley Scott brings Haldeman to the big screen if/when it happens. Scott, who created Blade Runner, Alien and now Prometheus, has the rights to make The Forever War.

Haldeman’s skill in writing about war, space and time led Stephen King to endorse him: “If there was a Fort Knox for the science fiction writers who really matter, we’d have to lock Haldeman up there.”

Haldeman’s latest work is a trilogy beginning with 2008’s Marsbound, which shows a Heinlein-like commitment to characters and heart but with a warped look into what can happen after first contact with a “Martian” race and “Others.”  Interestingly, Haldeman writes in the first person as a female protagonist.

Marsbound gives a distinct nod to Edgar Rice Burroughs, author of the Barsoom series -- A Princess of Mars, The Gods of Mars, John Carter of Mars, etc.  The spaceship that carries characters to and from Mars is named the John Carter.  The aliens are red, green and yellow, like the characters created by ERB, but unlike ERB’s swashbuckling swordplay, Haldeman employs psychology, sex and Sun-Tzu.

Mars, named after the Roman god of war, has long been a destination for science fiction writers.

Giovanni Schiaparelli, Italian scientist, discovered what he thought were continents, seas and “channels” on Mars. American astronomer Percival Lowell hypothesized that the channels, interpreted as “canals,” showed signs of water and vegetation.  His views were part of a worldwide meme imagining life on Mars.

In the final years of the 19th Century, H.G. Wells captivated human imagination with the The Crystal Egg and War of the Worlds, where Martians who had depleted the resources on their planet came as predators to stake their claim on Earth.

Discoveries and conjecture about Mars inspired the young Edgar Rice Burroughs, who was educated at Michigan Military Academy and then served in the Army with the 7th U.S. Cavalry before devoting most of the rest of his life to writing.

Like Heinlein, ERB and Haldeman, Arthur C. Clarke, Ray Bradbury, Lester del Rey, Philip José Farmer, Philip K. Dick and Frederik Pohl all had great works revolving around the red planet.

Heinlein created a mindbending look at Mars and spirituality with his Stranger in a Strange Land.  In The Number of the Beast Heinlein pays tribute to ERB with characters named Zebedia John Carter and Jacob Burroughs traveling to Barsoom and Oz.

As we’ve seen in earlier posts, ERB as a staple reading choice of Sailors who fought in World War II.  Pearl Harbor Survivors enjoyed SF, westerns and other adventure books.  Like the Greatest Generation service members who inspire Sailors today, Golden Age SF writers and imagineers like Haldeman inspire the writers and filmmakers of today.